Comments on Pixel Poppers: I'm Not Evil, I Just Play That Way: Player Motivat...

i just found this site and have to say: i love you...

2009-12-19T19:56:02.418-08:00

i just found this site and have to say: i love your take on things. keep up the great work.

@uhz...

2009-12-15T14:57:17.001-08:00

@uhzHiro:
Not all choicy, emotionally-powerful designs require that much extra content generation. It can be as simple as combining existing assets in ways that depend on how the player has acted, as in the example of The Sorrow which I go into at the end of my aforementioned Metal Gear Solid-themed entry.

But I know what you mean. And I do think we will get to that point, though I don't know when and I don't know how. Videogames might look very different by then.

As an example, though - one of the current obstacles is voice-acting. Storylines and character traits can't be too divergent, because the cost of recording and storing all the variations on dialog is prohibitive. (Which is part of why you sometimes paradoxically see much more flexibility in lower-budget, non-voiced games - varying just the text is much easier.) But voice synthesis software is improving all the time. It's not hard to imagine that at some point it'll be good enough to generate dialog dynamically, completely eliminating that problem.

There are other obstacles too, of course, but engineers are a crafty bunch. When it comes to innovation, I have learned to expect to be surprised. :)

Do you think we ever will get to that point? I ho...

2009-12-15T07:43:30.812-08:00

Do you think we ever will get to that point? I hope we will, I think the potential is there like you say, but for a given budget will it ever be possible to make a choicey game as emotionally impactfull?

To make a divergent story line with player impact while developing up to par in graphics and sound would require a significant budget upgrade. You're paying for all this additonal stuff that the player might not even see and hear. And you're paying writers to come up with 10 story lines that in theory are each as good as any single one would be.

That's why you see games like Dragon age where you can choose varios starting story lines, but ultimately 90% of the game is the same, and the ending is essentially the same no matter what you've done, with the exception of some text box descriptions of what your side characters did - like some end of movie snapshot "Billy finally did get that cow he always wanted."

I'm not going to play Dragon Age 8 times, or even twice. I wonder how many dollars were spent on the things I didn't see and do? This must be a consideration for developers.

So while I'd love to see a choicey game with as robust a setting and story (regardless of my many choices), I haven't yet and for budgetary reasons I'm not convinced I will.

PS thanks for replying, I will continue to check your blog, which I only found a week ago.

@uh...

2009-12-15T07:13:43.453-08:00

@uhzHiro (formerly known as Alex):
You're in pretty good company with this view, actually. I don't know if you read my earlier post, Play Me A Story, Part One: Metal Gear Solid and the Cinematic Game, but no less a personage than Hideo Kojima agrees with you. In a 2008 interview I quoted, he openly questions whether it's possible to maintain emotional impact over a branching story:

"...if I make multiple storylines and allow the users to select which story, this might really sacrifice the deep emotion the user might feel; when there's a concrete storyline, and you kind of go along that rail, you feel the destiny of the story, which at the end, makes you feel more moved."

For my part, I certainly think it's easier to engender emotional experiences with a linear, predetermined narrative. After all, we've been doing that for thousands of years. We have a lot of practice and inherited wisdom to lean on. We're a lot newer at telling more interactive and dynamic stories - at least electronically.

But I think the potential for emotional involvement here is incredible, because choice and agency - when legitimate, as I discuss in Play Me A Story, Part Two: What Makes A Metanarrative? - invest the player so much more in the events of the story. Aeris's death would pierce the heart so much deeper if the player actually felt responsible for it.

I do agree that we haven't gotten to that point just yet - it's still safe to expect more emotional investment from more creator-directed rather than player-directed games. But have you ever played D&D, or something like it? I find myself far more attached to my characters there than I ever was to Crono or Cecil. If and when we reach a point where a computer can match a human DM, choicey games will take over as the emotional powerhouses.

formerly posted as Alex: I'll conceed the poi...

2009-12-15T06:09:17.846-08:00

formerly posted as Alex:

I'll conceed the point that FFVI character aren't that morally complex.

But back to my point about controlling the artistic vision. I can't remember ever feeling as emotionally invested in a WRPG where I had more choice about my character than I was with the old JRPGs where I had none.

My hunch for the explanation is that the jrpgs of old were longer, and they had more character development. So even though I don't choose what Cloud or Chrono or Fei Fong Wong does, I still feel like I'm them in the game, and their character is well developed an interesting. Also the Js tend to have more other interesting characters, while Ws like Oblivion or Fallout3 just have you - and you may or may not be that interested by your own decisions.

So even though I had no choice with the characters at all, games like FF4, 6, 7, Tactics, Xenogears and the Chronos... I enjoyed the overall experience of all of those much more than games like Oblivion, Fallout3, Dragon Age, and Mass effect. In my opinion, WRPGs sacrafice a lot of attention to story and characters in order to pay more attention to diverging plotlines and dialog.

People are still moved by books and movies, which have no interactivity at all. So I suppose my point is that storytelling is more important for emotional effect than personal choice. I know that's an unconventional thought, but it has been my experience.

@Al...

2009-12-14T09:29:23.973-08:00

@Alex:
There's an artistic question of whether to give the player a predefined character with established personality, or let them create and define their own. Traditionally, we think of JRPGs as taking the former route, and Western ones as taking the latter, but there's a spectrum there, based on how restricted the player's options are. Cloud, as is typical for a Final Fantasy hero, is pretty far on the predefined side of the scale - so the idea of him doing these things that go against his known and established personality sounds ridiculous.

Something I find interesting is the 'silent protagonist' like Crono in Chrono Trigger. You don't really get to define his character yourself, and your options are limited to heroic ones, but because he never speaks you have a wider range in which to imagine his personality.

Anyway, I grew up on Final Fantasy as well, and will always remember the installments I played quite fondly, and that includes VI - but I don't know that I would call any of its characters morally interesting (except maaaybe Shadow). Leo and Cid (and Celes, for that matter, and sort of Terra though it was against her will) are good guys who start out on the evil side. They all eventually realize their side is evil, and rebel against it in different ways, and with different results.

But they are still rebelling against pure evil and joining the side of pure good. We don't really see them become conflicted, trying to decide who has the moral high ground. We're never given an explanation of why they work for the Empire (not the ones who chose to, at least). There isn't really any moral complexity - they just kind of look around and realize they're on the wrong side.

The game doesn't even run with this and suggest that maybe other soldiers in the Empire - ones with much less choice than the generals - might not be evil either, and maybe you shouldn't kill them.

I'll always love Final Fantasy VI, but not because of any degree of moral complexity.

@Frac...

2009-12-14T09:12:34.866-08:00

@FractalC:
You know, I've been hearing a lot about The Witcher lately. Not quite as much as Demon's Souls, but people keep mentioning it. I'm gonna have to give it a try.

@Br...

2009-12-14T09:11:26.493-08:00

@Brad Galloway:
Thanks! :-D

Good article. I think there is something to be sa...

2009-12-11T12:47:05.965-08:00

Good article. I think there is something to be said for the less immersive rpgs, generally the japanese rpgs.

There are advantages and disadvantages of giving a choice and creating alternate experiences in an rpg, vs the straight line. You have already gone into detail about the virtues of broad options and consequences, so I wont.

The jrpg type offer what is essential a novel with interactivity. The advantage is that in this narrative, the writer has complete creative controll. Everyone gets the same experience, which can be beneficial when your main character just has to be a certain way to tell the story. Can you image Final Fantasy 7 where you as Cloud turn down certain quests, or act like a jerk, or kill innocent townsfolk? No, it would ruin the story that the creators wanted to tell you.

I would also argue that creating a plot tree instead of a plot line diludes the quality of the content. Having to plan and create alternative outcomes must take some toll on the focus for the overall experience.

From a moral aspect, allowing us to be ourselves within the game is fun. Indeed I'm not suggesting by this comment that I think one philosophy is superior to the other. But as far as children are concerned, I don't think wrpg morality choice systems are a good fit. The concept of completing the all important mission with no regard for the wellbeing of anyone else is not something we want to instill in our kids. I think a good foundation is generally set in children with absolute good, and absolute evil. Later they can face moral ambiguity. So for them, a no choice interactive story is a better fit.

I also want to point out that even way back there were games which had Morally interesting characters. In FF6, you had bad guys turned good: General Leo and Cid, plus you had Human on Esper bang bang.

Full disclosure: I grew up on the FF series, so I'm a little biased. But I still think there is a place for morally abolute static narratives.

Interesting topic. The Witcher is another good e...

2009-12-11T08:35:52.477-08:00

Interesting topic.

The Witcher is another good example of game where the question of moral choices is well built. In this RPG, there is no "right" choice, but each choice has a moral value and moral consequences.

Love. Your. Articles. = D

2009-12-10T13:41:17.048-08:00

Love. Your. Articles. = D